Comments on: Searching for common ground with Andrew Keen http://www.ethanzuckerman.com/blog/2008/02/02/searching-for-common-ground-with-andrew-keen/ EthanZ's musings on Africa, media and international development Fri, 19 Mar 2010 20:37:45 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.2 hourly 1 By: Kevin Arthur http://www.ethanzuckerman.com/blog/2008/02/02/searching-for-common-ground-with-andrew-keen/comment-page-1/#comment-883230 Kevin Arthur Wed, 27 Feb 2008 21:58:44 +0000 http://www.ethanzuckerman.com/blog/2008/02/02/searching-for-common-ground-with-andrew-keen/#comment-883230 "He argues that we should listen to experts, not to amateurs... Did he become an expert in a single moment of enlightenment?" I'm not sure that's a fair characterization of Keen's argument. Clearly there are shades of gray in the real world, and I think he acknowledges that. Setting up this false dichotomy makes for a nice "gotcha" question but I don't think it's terribly useful otherwise. It's interesting that Keen is now referencing Fred Turner's book in his talks (I don't remember if he did in his book). That other Internet scourge Lee Siegel is quite negative about Turner. Of course Lee Siegel is probably more unhinged than Keen, but that's another topic. “He argues that we should listen to experts, not to amateurs… Did he become an expert in a single moment of enlightenment?”

I’m not sure that’s a fair characterization of Keen’s argument. Clearly there are shades of gray in the real world, and I think he acknowledges that. Setting up this false dichotomy makes for a nice “gotcha” question but I don’t think it’s terribly useful otherwise.

It’s interesting that Keen is now referencing Fred Turner’s book in his talks (I don’t remember if he did in his book). That other Internet scourge Lee Siegel is quite negative about Turner. Of course Lee Siegel is probably more unhinged than Keen, but that’s another topic.

]]> By: contentious.com - links for 2008-02-05 http://www.ethanzuckerman.com/blog/2008/02/02/searching-for-common-ground-with-andrew-keen/comment-page-1/#comment-854097 contentious.com - links for 2008-02-05 Tue, 05 Feb 2008 16:24:00 +0000 http://www.ethanzuckerman.com/blog/2008/02/02/searching-for-common-ground-with-andrew-keen/#comment-854097 [...] Searching for common ground with Andrew Keen (Ethan Zuckerman) BRAVO!!! “I wonder when Keen became worth listening to. He argues that we should listen to experts, not to amateurs… but this is his 1st book. Did he become an expert in a single moment of enlightenment? Or when the check from the publisher cleared?” (tags: business culture marketing publishing controversy contributed+content content+quality) [...] [...] Searching for common ground with Andrew Keen (Ethan Zuckerman) BRAVO!!! “I wonder when Keen became worth listening to. He argues that we should listen to experts, not to amateurs… but this is his 1st book. Did he become an expert in a single moment of enlightenment? Or when the check from the publisher cleared?” (tags: business culture marketing publishing controversy contributed+content content+quality) [...]

]]> By: Larry Sanger http://www.ethanzuckerman.com/blog/2008/02/02/searching-for-common-ground-with-andrew-keen/comment-page-1/#comment-851093 Larry Sanger Mon, 04 Feb 2008 14:17:55 +0000 http://www.ethanzuckerman.com/blog/2008/02/02/searching-for-common-ground-with-andrew-keen/#comment-851093 Well, then Andrew is loving us for the wrong reasons. Sure, we rely on experts. But we don't rely on experts <i>more</i> than we rely on masses of users. Indeed, that's precisely and quantifiably false, in various ways. Well, then Andrew is loving us for the wrong reasons. Sure, we rely on experts. But we don’t rely on experts more than we rely on masses of users. Indeed, that’s precisely and quantifiably false, in various ways.

]]> By: Ethan Zuckerman posts about Andrew Keen « Tech Explorer http://www.ethanzuckerman.com/blog/2008/02/02/searching-for-common-ground-with-andrew-keen/comment-page-1/#comment-848742 Ethan Zuckerman posts about Andrew Keen « Tech Explorer Sun, 03 Feb 2008 23:11:18 +0000 http://www.ethanzuckerman.com/blog/2008/02/02/searching-for-common-ground-with-andrew-keen/#comment-848742 [...] Ethan Zuckerman posts about Andrew Keen February 4, 2008 — techxplorer First spotted on a post on the Joho the Blog site is a link to post by Ethan Zuckerman entitled “Searching for common ground with Andrew Keen“. [...] [...] Ethan Zuckerman posts about Andrew Keen February 4, 2008 — techxplorer First spotted on a post on the Joho the Blog site is a link to post by Ethan Zuckerman entitled “Searching for common ground with Andrew Keen“. [...]

]]> By: Ethan http://www.ethanzuckerman.com/blog/2008/02/02/searching-for-common-ground-with-andrew-keen/comment-page-1/#comment-848396 Ethan Sun, 03 Feb 2008 21:17:03 +0000 http://www.ethanzuckerman.com/blog/2008/02/02/searching-for-common-ground-with-andrew-keen/#comment-848396 That's a lot of reaction for sixteen words, Larry. :-) Keen brought up Citizendium as an example that relied less on masses of users and more on experts. That may not be a fair characterization of how Citizendium works, but that's the context he brought it up in. That’s a lot of reaction for sixteen words, Larry. :-) Keen brought up Citizendium as an example that relied less on masses of users and more on experts. That may not be a fair characterization of how Citizendium works, but that’s the context he brought it up in.

]]> By: Citizendium Blog » Reactionary? http://www.ethanzuckerman.com/blog/2008/02/02/searching-for-common-ground-with-andrew-keen/comment-page-1/#comment-848068 Citizendium Blog » Reactionary? Sun, 03 Feb 2008 18:58:40 +0000 http://www.ethanzuckerman.com/blog/2008/02/02/searching-for-common-ground-with-andrew-keen/#comment-848068 [...] a blog post by Ethan Zuckerman, discussing a talk by Andrew Keen of Cult of the Amateur infamy: [Keen is] a fan of Citizendium, [...] [...] a blog post by Ethan Zuckerman, discussing a talk by Andrew Keen of Cult of the Amateur infamy: [Keen is] a fan of Citizendium, [...]

]]> By: Hans Suter http://www.ethanzuckerman.com/blog/2008/02/02/searching-for-common-ground-with-andrew-keen/comment-page-1/#comment-846741 Hans Suter Sun, 03 Feb 2008 11:08:24 +0000 http://www.ethanzuckerman.com/blog/2008/02/02/searching-for-common-ground-with-andrew-keen/#comment-846741 Reminds me of a letter pope Pius IX wrote to King Vittorio Emanuele warning him of the dangers of teaching the masses reading and writing. Reminds me of a letter pope Pius IX wrote to King Vittorio Emanuele warning him of the dangers of teaching the masses reading and writing.

]]> By: Chris Blow http://www.ethanzuckerman.com/blog/2008/02/02/searching-for-common-ground-with-andrew-keen/comment-page-1/#comment-846240 Chris Blow Sun, 03 Feb 2008 08:21:07 +0000 http://www.ethanzuckerman.com/blog/2008/02/02/searching-for-common-ground-with-andrew-keen/#comment-846240 Fantastic points and summary all around; thanks again. Keen really sounds like he's missing the DIY/punk rock/hacker point (with which I am so enamored). Frankly he sounds like a reactionary jerk. But I'm looking forward to reading his book. (And here's a debate I wish I could see: Keen vs. Zuckerman on international media. Is there any more obvious area in which expert-centric infrastructure has already failed us?) Fantastic points and summary all around; thanks again.

Keen really sounds like he’s missing the DIY/punk rock/hacker point (with which I am so enamored). Frankly he sounds like a reactionary jerk. But I’m looking forward to reading his book.

(And here’s a debate I wish I could see: Keen vs. Zuckerman on international media. Is there any more obvious area in which expert-centric infrastructure has already failed us?)

]]> By: Seth Finkelstein http://www.ethanzuckerman.com/blog/2008/02/02/searching-for-common-ground-with-andrew-keen/comment-page-1/#comment-845788 Seth Finkelstein Sun, 03 Feb 2008 05:50:36 +0000 http://www.ethanzuckerman.com/blog/2008/02/02/searching-for-common-ground-with-andrew-keen/#comment-845788 Ethan, I don't think Andrew Keen is at all the place to look for good critiques of web evangelism. He does too much playing to the people that the evangelists demonize, so he ends up just saying the opposite of what the bubble-blowers say. Ironically, he uses exactly the same attention-seeking <em>techniques</em>, just in the service of a different line of patter (a fact that is kind of amusing, especially when that's taken as some sort of betrayal - as in, how dare he use the tools of blogging and saying things which are "outrageous, provocative" to GET ATTENTION yet put them in the service of elitist bloviating, instead of their proper use of course as demagogic pandering!) It's not an accident he's teamed-up with David Weinberger on the punditry circuit, since they're in the same line of business and complementing each other (no offense meant, David). Shelley Powers had a great post on that a while back. http://burningbird.net/connecting/authorities/ The problem is that good critics tend to be driven out by personal attacks and the clubby A-list gatekeeping, so mirror-images like him are all that's left. At least, all that's left BEING HEARD! Oh, note Jimmy Wales is not personally a hippie. However, he uses rhetoric and manipulation which is similar (though not exclusive) to many pseudo-hippie "New Age" gurus. I suspect this is very calculated on his part. People write as if a devotee of Ayn Rand had to be publicly preaching Objectivism (granted, an annoying number do). But that's like expecting all amoral politicians to declare their naked ambition. One might say his public marketing persona is loosely as a hippie. That's what sells. And you're not going to catch Keen in some great "Gotcha!". Anybody who does this sort of thing has heard the obvious over and over. Ethan, I don’t think Andrew Keen is at all the place to look for good critiques of web evangelism. He does too much playing to the people that the evangelists demonize, so he ends up just saying the opposite of what the bubble-blowers say. Ironically, he uses exactly the same attention-seeking techniques, just in the service of a different line of patter (a fact that is kind of amusing, especially when that’s taken as some sort of betrayal – as in, how dare he use the tools of blogging and saying things which are “outrageous, provocative” to GET ATTENTION yet put them in the service of elitist bloviating, instead of their proper use of course as demagogic pandering!)

It’s not an accident he’s teamed-up with David Weinberger on the punditry circuit, since they’re in the same line of business and complementing each other (no offense meant, David). Shelley Powers had a great post on that a while back.
http://burningbird.net/connecting/authorities/

The problem is that good critics tend to be driven out by personal attacks and the clubby A-list gatekeeping, so mirror-images like him are all that’s left. At least, all that’s left BEING HEARD!

Oh, note Jimmy Wales is not personally a hippie. However, he uses rhetoric and manipulation which is similar (though not exclusive) to many pseudo-hippie “New Age” gurus. I suspect this is very calculated on his part. People write as if a devotee of Ayn Rand had to be publicly preaching Objectivism (granted, an annoying number do). But that’s like expecting all amoral politicians to declare their naked ambition. One might say his public marketing persona is loosely as a hippie. That’s what sells.

And you’re not going to catch Keen in some great “Gotcha!”. Anybody who does this sort of thing has heard the obvious over and over.

]]> By: david silver http://www.ethanzuckerman.com/blog/2008/02/02/searching-for-common-ground-with-andrew-keen/comment-page-1/#comment-845320 david silver Sun, 03 Feb 2008 03:37:28 +0000 http://www.ethanzuckerman.com/blog/2008/02/02/searching-for-common-ground-with-andrew-keen/#comment-845320 nice post and great question. i would have been really curious to hear his answer. maybe - gasp - he'll attempt an answer here in the comments. nice post and great question. i would have been really curious to hear his answer. maybe – gasp – he’ll attempt an answer here in the comments.

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